| Author |
Message |
    
Matthias Fliegner
New member
Username: Matthias_muc
Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 6:01 pm: |   |
Dear all,
within the Menuitem "Neues Projekt Assistent" there is a spelling mistake.
It would be better to name the menuitem like one of the following:
"Neues Projekt - Assistent verwenden"
"Neues Projekt - Assistenten verwenden"
"Neues Projekt mit Assistenten anlegen"
Cheers
Matthias |
Johann Tonsing
New member
Username: Jtonsing
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 01, 2003 - 8:50 pm: | |
The string in the English version is "New project wizard". I would interpret the entire phrase as the name of the item being invoked. It does not say "Use Wizard to create a new project" or "New project - using wizard" or "Wizard for new projects", etc. These three words constitute a "noun" preceded by an "adjectival clause" - together they form a "nominal phrase" (are these the correct terms?). Q: Which wizard? A: The "New project wizard"! Please advise if anyone interprets it differently. I am not a linguist!
The German "Neues Projekt Assistent" seems at first glance to me to be an accurate translation, at least with respect to the words themselves.
1. Is it correct to use "Neues Projekt" as adjectival qualifier preceding "Assistent" without having intervening words or symbols? If not, would someone please explain the general rule governing this case?
2. "Neues-Projekt-Assistent" may also be acceptable. It seems to clarify that this is a single concept. Although it may be grammatically more correct, I find it visual-aesthetically less appealing.
3. One may be tempted to write "Neues Projekt-Assistent". In English, "New project-wizard" feels completely wrong - it (IMHO) implies "new (project wizard)", i.e. a new project-creating-wizard (with the wizard being new), rather than (new project) wizard, i.e. a wizard to create new projects (with the project being new). This problem does not arise in German, as the former would be "Neues Projekt-Assistent" whereas the latter would be "Neuer Projekt-Assistent" - adjective-noun agreement happens to imply a specific "grouping" in this case. So although it appears weird to my admittedly English biased eye, I am willing to consider "Neues Projekt-Assistent", as long as someone can confirm that it is definitely correct (and definitely more correct than "Neues-Projekt-Assistent" or "Neues Projekt Assistent"). If we decide on using dashes, I'd prefer using two...
4. We could consider changing the name of the invoked item to "Assistent" (= "wizard"), and change the menu item to contain a phrase which describes that the wizard should be invoked - e.g. the phrases Matthias has suggested.
5. We could let the name of the invoked item be "Assistent für neue Projekte", and use that name as the long form, while writing "Assistent" as the short form. This approach is probably more consistent with the English nomenclature than approach 4.
Questions for John Strait:
1. How did you intend the English term to be interpreted?
2. How important is it to let the German nomenclature be consistent with the English naming principles?
----
FWIW I searched for related information on Google, and discovered http://www.personal.uni-jena.de/~x1gape/Pub/start.htm. After reading all those publications, I guess one will understand the issues. I enjoyed scanning http://www.personal.uni-jena.de/~x1gape/Pub/Konzept_Nominalitaet_1997.pdf ...
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Matthias Fliegner
New member
Username: Matthias_muc
Post Number: 12
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 4:13 am: | |
Hi Johann,
I would like to get through the points you have posted:
1. The usage of "Neues Projekt Assistent" is incorrect within German. It is hard for me to explain but I will try:
When using these three words together the first word "Neues" refers more to "Assistent" than to "Projekt". Therefore it should be "Neuer Projekt Assistent". This would be the right grammar for it but the wrong meaning.
So it is necessary to seperate the three words to preserve the right meaning and not to get into problems with the grammar. The words "Neues Projekt - Assistent" would be a possible way to do it. Please mind that I am using blanks before and after the "-". Through this I would like to point out that it is not a single word like this "Projekt-Assistent".
2. To write everything with a "-" together doesn't make any sense. Because it is not a single word.
3. As described at point 1: If you are using "Neues Projekt-Assistent" then you point out that "Projekt-Assistent" is one word. Therefore it should be "Neuer Projekt-Assistent" to take care of the grammar.
But this word isn't used in that way in Germany. In general a "Projektassistent" (the word is rarely used) is a person which helps the project leader managing a project. No one would like to clone a person through clicking on "Neuer Projekt-Assistent" ;-) - it is quite funny how the German understanding of this it. So we do not use a "person" together with "new". I hope that somebody can understand my poor explanation.
It's better to seperate the words like mentioned above: "Neues Projekt - Assistent". Through this "Neues Projekt" will be one part/meaning - "Assistent" will be the other part.
4. "Neues Projekt - Assistenten verwenden" is the "long" version which does make it everything clear. But I think it is also ok to use it without the word "verwenden". Everybody should know what is meant.
5. Just "Assistent" is ok. But it would be better to combine it with "Projekt" to make it easer to understand the meaning.
Puh, that's all. It took me half an hour to write down this posting (my english is not that good), I hope that somebody could understand me.
Cheers
Matthias |
Gerald Nipp
New member
Username: Gnipp
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 5:20 am: | |
Hello to all
I'd like to put my two cents into this discussion:
Without any doubt "Neues Projekt Assistent" is no german at all! But we have a problem with space here so we should consider a complete different phrase like "Neu mit Assistent".
At least, "Neues Projekt - Assistent" is better than the ridiculous original.
All suggestions of Matthias are better too. So if you can afford the space, I strongly recommend to change that crap!
Thank you and regards from Paris
Gerald |
Matthias Fliegner
New member
Username: Matthias_muc
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 6:22 am: | |
Dear all,
another possibility is to use
"Neues Projekt" for a new project and
"Neues Projekt..." for a new project using the Assistant.
But I think "Neues Projekt - Assistent" is better.
Regards
Matthias |
John Strait
Moderator
Username: Jstrait
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 10:48 am: | |
I am not qualified to judge the finer points of German grammer, but I can explain the intended meaning of the terms and phrases used in the application. In English, the term "New project wizard" is intended to convey the idea of using the Wizard to create a new project. It certainly does not mean that we are creating a new Wizard!
The phrase "New project wizard" is ambiguous in the English also. Many phrases in English have ambiguities that must be understood from context. English is not a programming language! If it were, we could write (new project) (wizard) to make it clear that "new" and "project" are more closely associated than "project" and "wizard".
Only someone who is being deliberately obtuse would could argue that "new project wizard" is a command for creating new wizards.
I want to point out that no user has ever complained about this command. Users have no trouble understanding and using this command.
There is a slight complication. In the File menu, this phrase functions as a verb phrase, i.e. "create a new project using the wizard". However, on the dialog box titles it functions as a noun phrase, i.e. "the wizard that creates new projects". If I had to choose one or the other to use in both places, I would choose the noun phrase, because a verb phrase makes no sense at all as a dialog box title. This suggests that "Assistent für neue Projekte" may be the best choice.
English is an imperfect language, but we are accustomed to using it in spite of the ambiguities. Sometimes we worry too much about these things.
One can always make improvements, but at some point we must decide that the German language file is good enough.
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Johann Tonsing
New member
Username: Jtonsing
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:17 am: | |
Thanks to John for explaining that this phrase should be a nominal phrase, not a verb phrase. May I suggest adding this information to the master file used by all translators? Alternatively, stating that it occurs in the menu as well as in the dialog box title may suffice.
"Assistent für neue Projekte" works for me.
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Gerald Nipp
New member
Username: Gnipp
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
Dear John
Sorry, but I'm inclined to ask why are you making the effort of engaging a group of translators and an appropriate forum if you deny the suggestions made there finally?
Believe us, "Neues Projekt Assistent" is embarrassing and peinful to hear. It is not german at all. It sounds like a translation done by somebody with little knowledge of the language!
I hope that was clear enough. And - of course - I don't want to offend anybody. Simply change that phrase to whatever else and don't care what the sence is in english language. Like this, it is just crap!
Best regards,
Gerald |
John Strait
Moderator
Username: Jstrait
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:40 am: | |
Hi Gerald,
Please accept my apology. I truly value the suggestions you all are making.
I did not mean to cause any offense and I certainly did not mean to deny the suggestions. Mostly I have tried to stay out of the discussions until a consensus is reached. In this case, however, the number of different suggestions seemed to be increasing rather than approaching a common understanding.
In general, I intend my comments to be used as guidance, not as ultimatums.
Please know that I accept your statement that '"Neues Projekt Assistent" is no german at all'. However, so many different suggestions have been made that it is difficult to know which one is the "final" suggestion.
Whatever phrase is settled upon, we must choose one that works in the menu and on the dialog box titles.
I personally find the use of hyphens in some of the suggestions to be confusing. Sometimes hyphens indicate that two words are tied together into a compound word and other times they indicate two phrases are separated from one another.
As I wrote, a phrase that captures the concept of "wizard for creating a new project" may be the best choice. Do you agree or disagree?
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Matthias Fliegner
New member
Username: Matthias_muc
Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 11:55 am: | |
For me "Assistent für neue Projekte" is fine.
It fits not nice into the menu but it is the best compromise.
"Neues Projekt"
"Assistent für neue Projekte"
"Neues Projekt"
"Neues Projekt - Assistent"
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Johann Tonsing
New member
Username: Jtonsing
Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
All,
Please blame me for the phrase "Neues Projekt Assistent". Somehow it did not seem obviously incorrect to me, probably because I'm too used to similar constructs which are perfectly legal in English.
IMHO John did not disregard our suggestions. He accepted that the phrase is currently erroneous. He considered the suggestions everyone made, the reservations people expressed about the suggestions, and his insight into where the string is used - e.g. that it also needs to be usable as a dialog box title. Taking this additional information into account, he suggested an alternative.
IMHO it would be acceptable for anyone to suggest an alternative as long as we are moving closer to the "best" option (spiralling in to it). If we are simply "flip-flopping" between two (or more) options, where neither option is obviously superior, it is clearly John's prerogative to pick one of the options, because he is the program author.
Either of the last two suggested options work for me ("Assistent für neue Projekte" or "Neues Projekt - Assistent").
Regards
Johann
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Matthias Fliegner
New member
Username: Matthias_muc
Post Number: 17
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2003 - 2:29 pm: | |
Dear All,
I just reviewed this whole thread.
@Gerhald: I think that Johann gets many different suggestions for specific corrections. So he has to make sure that the "right" word is used. Sometimes it is hard to convince him even if you think that it is obvious.
@Johann: Your German is quite good. How did you learn it? As you know German is not as easy as English. Even if a word can be found on some websites doesn't mean for sure that it can be used within a similar situation. Also the usage of words within the English language can be compared with the usage of words within the German language.
@this thread: Anybody please make a decision between "Assistent für neue Projekte" or "Neues Projekt - Assistent". I think both terms are good and I do not want to spend more time thinking about this.
In total I spend about 45minutes with writing postings about this topic. My problem is that it takes ages for me to formulate postings within that detail. I do find that discussion is valuable and that it is worth to discuss things. Through our discussion we've come to two good options.
Every effort should be equal to it's benefit. So I will stop at this point.
Best regards
Matthias
ps.: I have found about 50 corrections/suggestions within the german language file. Hopefully not all will lead to such long discussion. ;-) |
